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Suezanne Orr's avatar

Vaccination programs have saved millions of lives around the globe, including in the United States. Measles is one of the most contagious diseases known to mankind, and can be prevented by vaccination. Yet, we are seeing a growth in measles cases in the United States and elsewhere. The cases ( and deaths and hospitalizations) of individuals infected with measles are preventable by receipt of vaccines. The vaccine costs about $1.00 per dose. Unvaccinated Americans travel overseas, return home and infect unvaccinated people, including children.

The children described by Dr. Bueno are my grandchildren- the most beautiful, sweet babies - threatened by those who mistakenly believe that vaccination for measles with the MMR can cause autism. There is NO scientific evidence that supports this false belief. No single other child should suffer due to living in a society in which people ignore scientific evidence about the effectiveness of vaccines. Dr. Bueno is correct : a decision by one person to be unvaccinated exposes innocent children and others to needless suffering.

This is not a personal decision.

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Baya Lazz's avatar

The article doesn't present any scientific evidence. You are making a straw man argument that people are ignoring scientific evidence. If you had any you wouldn't need to resort to these disinformation tactics since you could simply present the evidence.

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Caroline Orr Bueno, PhD's avatar

You realize you’re commenting in response to a PhD-level epidemiologist, right? Because you are. Trust me, she doesn’t need “disinformation” to make her point. Argue with her at your own peril. (That’s my mom and I can tell you from experience she will win that argument in her sleep).

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Jen's avatar

Oh ffs. This is like complaining that a calendar doesn't cite evidence on the length of months and years. At this point, the studies of the effectiveness of vaccines, especially those that have been in use for decades, are well known and easily accessible to the public. There is really no reason to continue to repeat them in every article. At this point very few American adults don't know the science exists. Those who choose not to vaccinate don't do it because they don't know about the research; they just chose not to believe that research. Often because they decided to believe instead in some crap presented by charlatans like RFKJr, who make good money convincing people to avoid vaccines.

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Baya Lazz's avatar

Which research? You sound like a flat earther asserting that everybody has always known the earth is flat and the heretics just choose not to believe the truth.

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Don A in Pennsultucky's avatar

I got the original injected polio vaccine when I was in kindergarten and it had just become available. I do not recall if it was just one or 2 doses but when the oral version was released I got dosed with that and then again a few years later and once more when I was 19 and the US Navy gave it to me along with my 3rd dose of smallpox vaccine and who knows what else. Then I had to travel to the nearest Army facility to get yellow fever vaccine.

I had native mumps and measles as did my brothers.

Interesting to me was the details of how contagious chickenpox is because I had not gotten it the same time as my 2 brothers but did come down with it some time later when we were on our way to Lake George for 2 weeks. I was undoubtedly spreading it. I was 10 or 12 then.

I have received the Shingrix series which is good because getting that now at 74 would be very inconvenient. I also get flu shots every year and have kept up my COVID shots.

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Caroline Orr Bueno, PhD's avatar

I was blown away when my daughter’s doctor told me how contagious it is. And measles is even more so. I’m so thankful my two children are at the age where they’ve been vaccinated and aren’t susceptible anymore, especially given the direction we are headed in as a country.

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Noreen Lassandrello's avatar

Getting shingles is more than inconvenient. i have had my vaccine and I hate getting vaccines. But everyone I know who has had shingles says it is very awful. Severe cases can cause vision problems, hearing loss, bacterial infections, etc. You will be very glad that you received these vaccines!

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Jen's avatar

Shingles can also cause severe pain that lasts months, years, or lifelong following the initial outbreak. And severe chronic pain is associated with numerous other problems including mental health issues and suicide, substance dependence, medication side effects that can be dangerous especially for the elderly, etc. In people who already have severe medical conditions and/or significant immune suppression, i have seen shingles turn fatal.

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Erik S's avatar

I find it rather ridiculous, my kids can’t bring peanut butter to school but they allow kids who could be carrying horrible viruses….

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Caroline Orr Bueno, PhD's avatar

Amen!

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Linda Worden's avatar

Good to see you again, Caroline! I was locked out of Xitter due to “being inauthentic” with no explanation. Couldn’t even get back on to delete my info. Just getting started here, but you were the first person I searched for. Thank you for this story. I barely survived Measles as a child. My family was called in to say goodbye. I still have flashbacks about the itching and ice baths. I will never understand the anger and selfishness over public health and caring about one’s community. Anyway - hope you and the fam are well. Really happy to find “my” people again. 💜💜💜

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Caroline Orr Bueno, PhD's avatar

Thank you, Linda! Great to see you here :)

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Sandra Ann Miller's avatar

I still won't get the flu shot, due to my reaction to it when had my first at 25. Funny thing, though, I don't get the flu, mainly because I wash my hands. Go figure. (Remember how next to no one had the flu flu in 2020? Wonder why.) But, pump me full of everything COVID, pretty please (still a NOVID and still mask everywhere). Is there even going to be a vaccine for that this year? I had chicken pox when I was in 6th grade, and the scar right between my eyes to prove it. I reluctantly got the shingles vax earlier this year (reluctantly because even the nurse told me it was the worst). First shot sucked a bit. Never saw that color red on my body before (shoulder ached for over a week, but that's what Midol and Arnica are for...don't underestimate the power of Midol, my friends). Shot 2 was a breeze. And, for all of my vaccinations, I still don't glow in the dark, I still am not magnetic, I still operate sans mind control. I have autoimmune issues, all sorts of allergies and asthma. I'm not going to get something I don't need to get if I can avoid it. Nothing is 100% guaranteed, of course, but we know what works and what's worth it. If you give any sort of sh!t about other people -- in general or just your close circle -- do what you can to make the world safer for others who truly can't do that for themselves. Cover your mouth when you cough and wash your hands. With SOAP! I'm so sorry you and your family went through all that, Caroline. So happy you all are well. Please tell your daughter that chicken pox scars are cool. They make us unique and give us a story to tell. Even if it's a scary and frustrating one. ❤️ xo

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Caroline Orr Bueno, PhD's avatar

One of my daughter’s chicken pox scars is right between her eyes (though it’s fading a bit over time). She will have a story to tell one day, because hardly anyone in her generation will have any experience with chickenpox. The vaccine just wiped it out. Glad you’re here, Sandra :) Thank you for reading.

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Sandra Ann Miller's avatar

Let her know that scar between her eyes gives her the uncanny ability to see through BS. Glad you’re here, Caroline. xo

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Jen's avatar

Sorry but i can't let this one go uncorrected. flu is spread via respiratory droplet, not skin contact. Washing your hands definitely does help reduce your risk both by reducing the chance of exposure to droplets that ended up on your hands but also by helping keep your immunity up because you don't have to fight off as many other illnesses that are spread primarily on the hands. But, even with great handwashing you can still get the flu if you're breathing within several feet of an infected person. In fact, freshly exhaled droplets that are inhaled immediately are far more infectious than older droplets that have landed on a surface and then got picked up by your hand. Plus, in order to infect you those droplets have to end up in your respiratory tract. Not impossible from the hands but relatively unlikely.

The main reason people didn't have the flu in 2020 was because of reduced social contact and people wearing masks. Regular surgical masks are quite effective against flu, moreso than they are for COVID. A surgical mask is the one and only isolation step required for hospital staff with a flu patient. No gown needed because it's not generally spread through contact.

Just fyi. I'm not doubting you had a bad reaction, although depending how old you are, perhaps it was to the swine flu vaccines in the 70s, which did cause significant adverse effects, as opposed to regular flu? But i just want you and everybody who reads this to have the correct facts about flu transmission as they consider their options, and as you take preventative measures, vaccine or not. But do keep washing your hands. It prevents lots of very unpleasant GI bugs, along with a wide variety of other issues.

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Rob Price's avatar

I don't have a problem with allowing vaccination to be a personal choice but with that choice should come consequences of not being surprised when there's a list of things you can't do - like go to public school, like allowing employers to require it, etc. This isn't Nazi Germany when we'd force medical procedures on people without their consent and consent is part of how drug companies and the FDA gain trust from the people they serve.

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Caroline Orr Bueno, PhD's avatar

No, of course we will never actually force people to get a shot in their arm. But just because we have the opportunity to choose whether or not we get vaccinated, doesn’t mean that the choice is an individual one. It’s a social contract and we can choose to do our part, or not. And if we choose not to, you are absolutely right — there should be no surprise when we don’t get to partake in the benefits of the social contract that we backed out of.

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Richard's avatar

This article highlights a deeper failure—not just in public health messaging but in our education system as a whole. If medical professionals and educators had effectively communicated the importance of vaccination, we wouldn’t be seeing such widespread misunderstandings today. The fact that so many people question well-established science should have raised red flags decades ago.

Yes, vaccination is a choice, and that’s precisely why we live in a federal republic—where freedom comes with responsibility. The real issue isn’t whether people have the right to make personal decisions, but rather why so many lack the proper education and critical thinking skills to make informed ones.

Instead of addressing this root cause, society is stuck pointing fingers, assigning blame, and allowing fringe beliefs to overshadow empirical facts. If this trend continues, we risk entering a modern Dark Age—one where misinformation erodes the pillars of a strong nation: education, military strength, and a unified support base. Unless we find a way to restore trust in science and rational discourse, these foundations will continue to crumble, and the consequences will be dire.

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Caroline Orr Bueno, PhD's avatar

I agree that there is a deeper communication issue here that needs to be addressed, but I also think there is a clash of moral values going on between people at different ends of the ideological spectrum. As for the communication issue, I think the government failed during Covid to effectively communicate the value of vaccines and instead relied on pressure campaigns, which was not wise. Vaccination stands on solid science; we don’t need coercion to convince people that it works.

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Baya Lazz's avatar

Science isn't about trust. You are talking about restoring trust in charlatans which the scientific method seeks to prevent.

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Richard's avatar

Science itself is not about trust; it’s about evidence, experimentation, and repeatability. However, in practice, for scientific findings to be accepted and acted upon by the general public, there must be trust in the institutions and individuals conveying that information. If people lose faith in scientists, medical professionals, or public health organizations—whether due to past mistakes, misinformation, or perceived biases—they will be less likely to listen, regardless of the strength of the evidence.

In that sense, restoring trust is essential for ensuring that people actually follow the science. A failure to recognize this human factor leads to widespread skepticism, even when the scientific method itself remains sound. Addressing this issue isn’t about defending charlatans; it’s about ensuring that credible science is communicated effectively and that institutions maintain transparency and accountability to rebuild public confidence.

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Baya Lazz's avatar

The scientific consensus supports fruitination. Why do you feel the need to go online without fruit in your avatar? It is only a fruit. It's not too much to expect that you do the right thing. It's not just about you. There are other people effected by your negligence. We need everyone to get fruitinated to build community unity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kijIKuZZpWs

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Noreen Lassandrello's avatar

I am so relieved that my 5 grandchildren have all received the vaccines necessary to protect them from illnesses that others choose to spread.

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Steven Yax's avatar

Im not sure why this ended up in my email but its honestly impressive how delusional this entire article is.

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Caroline Orr Bueno, PhD's avatar

It’s in your email because you are subscribed to this Substack…

Hopefully that clears things up. If you’re still confused about the content, feel free to ask a question or address a specific point made in the article, and I’ll be happy to explain the science behind it at a level that you can understand.

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Steven Yax's avatar

I do not recall subscribing to this substack i use this app for one person i watch on youtube. I just heavily disagree with your opinion in every way. Honestly was disturbed by your line of reasoning.

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Patrick Moore's avatar

You need to stop posting and get busy. I hear Bigfoot is hanging from a UFO calling for you to hop over to the other side of the flat earth and suck up some of that sweet sweet adrenochrome, followed by a hydroxychloroquine chaser. Then some horse dewormer for dessert. Just be careful to avoid the chemtrails, and I understand the shape-shifting reptilian aliens have been particularly active lately. So watch your back.

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Baya Lazz's avatar

There is more evidence for bigfoot than there is for viruses.

https://rumble.com/v2tnyf4-the-final-refutal-of-virology.html

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Patrick Moore's avatar

That's a failed joke, I assume. No one could ascend a mountain of ignorance tall enough actually to believe that. But then, anyone who pays any attention to what some mindless rando on "rumble" says has earned their mindlessness. Here's a photograph of a virus. https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/monkeypox-virus-gm1398905863-452915117 And it's not a hoax from Gimlin or Patterson. It's reality. But then, reality is a foreign concept to horse dewormer afficionacos.

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Baya Lazz's avatar

Electron microscope doesn't do color so I'd say those are cgi and total fantasy. Some blobs in some cellular debris wouldn't be surprising tho. Here is 10 photos of bigfoot.

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/exploration-survival/10-convincing-bigfoot-sightings/

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Barry Levy's avatar

The PROBLEM is that governments at ALL levels LOST ALL CREDIBILITY during the Covid epidemic, with their misinformation, disinformation, and LIES about the Covid vaccines efficacy and harmful side effects. It CANNOT be quickly rebuilt.

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Caroline Orr Bueno, PhD's avatar

Well, that’s why I am hoping maybe some will listen to people like myself, who criticized the government for their COVID-related mishaps, but who also understand that the science of vaccination is solid and saves lives.

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Red Heron's avatar

I absolutely agree that vaccination really isn't a personal choice, by the simple virtue of being the one to communicate diseases to everyone.

Using this same logic, I also want no fluoride in the drinking water, because I am allergic to it. That affects people, and so fluoridated water is literally the same issue as vaccination, from opposing sides. Fluoride is something our teeth need, and its toxicity (generally mild, at low levels) is something we should get from toothpaste. It's not, however, good for bones that don't have enamel.

We should ban fluoridated municipal water and continue handling vaccines as a public health issue for exactly the same reasons: bodily consent.

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Gerald Mansfield's avatar

The Ft. Dietrich Disease warfare Unit was the scene of the crime. Judy worked there. Trump was POTUS and could order such a thing. Trump deserves to be shot but , Putins play was only entertaining. The assault was poorly planed pay acting. Sympathy was earned. Trump got reelected. Do you ever study science??

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Gerald Mansfield's avatar

I did read the Plague of Corruption book. You have not read it. Trump and Dr. Fauci sat in the oval office and Dr. Judy Mikovich came in and sat down. "Gain of Efficacy" was the term used for the weaponization of the virus. The Year was 2016 just after the Trump election. The Virus was weaponized within a day or two. The virus sat in Liquid nitrogen for several months. Eventually it got out. By 2018 many were dying. Ir could not be called the flue forever. Trump and Fauci conspired to make it China's fault although it was theirs. ARCO Health Alliance came to the rescue and was sacrificed when it all went wrong. Wuhan was the new crime scene for the false flag attack. 750,000,000 Chinese died. I am old and used Vitamin D3 and Wormwood to end my suffering. I was sick 2 or 3 times and tested 8 or 9 times. Never a positive test. You Scientist treat humans like we are lab rats. Dr. John Campbell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97R3IbWsbnE You did not read all the data.

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Saralyn Fosnight's avatar

😡👎🥵😭

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Baya Lazz's avatar

What sort of food did you purchase in the store? Eating healthy is not a "personal choice" because there is vulnerable babies that suffer when their mothers shift blame onto "someone who had walked down a grocery store aisle and was gone by the time the baby and her parents went down that aisle.".

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Caroline Orr Bueno, PhD's avatar

Can you reword your comment in a way that makes sense?

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Baya Lazz's avatar

Your country needs you to help fruitinate people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR_UAty1oBU

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Jonathan Lemieux's avatar

what about people who have had serious reactions to vaccines? In rare cases people have died from them.

I'm sorry, but life does involve risks. If you want to be safe from it all, live like Howard Stern and never leave the house. (lot of my conservative friends made fun of him, but as an introvert myself, I was jealous of him).

I'm sorry, but unless you can guarantee with 100% certainty (not 99%), that a vaccine cannot under any single circumstance cause adverse effects, regardless of underlying conditions, then you cannot make the argument that they should not be a personal choice

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Caroline Orr Bueno, PhD's avatar

Well it’s funny you should ask that, because HHS Secretary Kennedy told people who didn’t want to vaccinate their kids against measles that Vitamin A helps fight off the disease. And guess what? Kids in West Texas are now being treated for vitamin A toxicity.

There’s a risk in every single substance we put in our body, but with vaccines, the risk of not getting vaccinated is far higher. (And to be clear: I’m not arguing for compulsory vaccination. I’m saying that the choice to get vaccinated is not an individual one — it’s part of a social contract that we can choose to uphold or not.)

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Jonathan Lemieux's avatar

totally agree with that point, and this is why I personally do think some vaccines are worth the risk. Especially ones that have long track records of success with extremely rare side effects. Rapidly developed, and highly politicized ones like the covid vaccine only sow doubt and lead to people looking for sketchy anti-vaxx sites for the "truth".

But OK, as long as you're not suggesting compulsory vaccination, which honestly was the vibe I was picking up while reading this article. And frankly, if such a push for that was made, it would only make resistance greater, probably lead to violence, and probably only make MORE people join the anti-vaxxers. The better method is amplifying the harmful results of people who choose NOT to vaccinate (Kennedy's doing a great job at that), and continuing to generate clear, accurate data showing that you have better odds of being struck by lightning twice, than being permanently harmed by a vaccine

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𝕄𝕒𝕥𝕥 𝔾. 𝕃𝕖𝕘𝕖𝕣 🎨🎶🚀's avatar

No vaccine - NONE - can guarantee 100% safety in every circumstance, not even the ones we've all taken for decades. The tiny number of people with adverse reactions does not obviate the overwhelming majority who don't have such reactions. Vaccination CANNOT be a "personal choice" because A) diseases are transmissible and B) people who are otherwise healthy can contract them, get sick and/or die, and have. The more people who stupidly resist vaccines, the more diseases once thought eradicated can make a comeback. Quit trying to argue with a professional who knows far more than you about this subject.

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Jonathan Lemieux's avatar

But in most cases we can't actually know if we are in that minority. We are not born with a tag listing that we could have an adverse reaction to a certain vaccine. Without that certainly, arguing that it cannot be a personal choice is unfair. Would I strongly suggest/encourage you take that risk, sure. But to say it's not a personal choice, that's a dark path.

And your suggesting that I should not argue with a professional is inherently flawed. If we do not ask hard (but fair) questions to professionals, and we leave them to be in an echo chamber of "yes men", then accountability is dead. And when accountability is dead, bad things happen. I was respectful and my points were fair and well grounded. She replied respectfully, logically and reasonably, and we had a productive back and forth. You would do well to learn from her example

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